Curse

Algren Cole · Aug 25, 2005, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sciros Darkblade

Besides Ecto, which can cover 8 more trips at least, the occasional gold drop will more than make up for the non-rewarding trips to the UW. You don't farm UW for the fiery dragon swords, heh, you farm it for the 600k early retirement drop. I'm not sure a Sand Drake ever gave me anything like that ^_^

Sure, godly stuff doesn't drop *all the time,* where DOES it?

I mean, what are you trying to prove? That 105/55 monks are idiots and don't know what they're doing by farming UW? That they're just wasting their time? Excuse me if I don't buy that for a second.

I don't use my 105/55 monk to farm UW because it's not profitable in the least.

and I'd NEVER sell anything at rediculous prices. the 105/55 monk build gave me the opportunity to make some cash and drop some nice items into the hands of the people that can't farm for cheap money. I've yet to sell anything for more than 10 plat...that includes max dmg fiery dragon swords +30 fortitude grips and a multitude of other nice drops. Money is not really that important in this game.

Sciros Darkblade · Aug 25, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Algren, you are in the minority and probably not one of the people the 105/55 monk "outrage" is aimed at.

To both of you fellas, though, I've done my fair share of farming in various areas, and farming *anywhere* isn't all THAT lucrative, especially not compared to just sitting around LA all day long, buying low and selling high and making hundreds of thousands of gold by keeping an eye on the trade channel.

However, monks solo UW for the most part to get rich, and if they never did, then THIS ENTIRE ISSUE would hardly have been a blip on the radar. If monk/wars were lining up day and night to take a crack at Borliss Pass and its vast riches, do you think there would be like 100 threads here debating a nerf on their build?

Squizzard45 · Aug 25, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

I agree with copying a build does not equate to skill. But there are some things I should have made more clear.

My whole "I don't have the time..." point is that someone took the time to find and develop the 105-build. That person(s) decided to share that build with the community (which sounds mighty close to being teamwork to me) for all to use. I simply take advantage, not to be confused with exploit, of the build. I only use it because my monk can't really farm anywhere else effectively. And I don't have the time to go through the game again to create a W/* or ele/mo, or any other farming build. I don't have that kind of time nor inclination, so I make use of what's out there for my monk.

Also, keep in mind that UW is the ONLY place the 105 monk can solo. Do you think that they can run PB in the desert of the Ring of Fire islands?? Any other farming build can farm just about in all those places.

You say the drops and such are more lucrative in UW?? Well, I've only ever gotten 3 ectos in like 20 runs (only 3-4 with a 105 monk). I've never gotten a gold drop-and seen only like 2 in all my runs there. The gold the enemies drop is nice, no doubt; they are the highest gold drop from enemies, being on average like 115 gold or so. In my time in the desert, I've gotten 4 gold drops and seen like 6-7 more (in groups the whole time, and sometimes with henchman). The money drops are pretty decent there, being on average like 80 or so. So, by lucrative, if you're talking about strictly the extra money that drops and the rare ectos that you get, then yes, soloing UW is more profitable.

I'd also like to say that if Anet did decide to throw in some enchant removals or whatever to prevent the solo build, I'd just go about my business as usual. I'd be making a lot less money no doubt, but if it makes all the whiners complacent, then I'll leave Anet to their business.

PhineasToke · Aug 25, 2005, 06:10 PM // 18:10

I've tried to talk to some of these characters as they run in and out of Riverside, but they never seem to respond or want to join our groups. Snobby, I guess, or could it be the robotic way they play the game? O_O

Sciros Darkblade · Aug 25, 2005, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Oh, Squizzard, if you want to farm something other than UW with a 105/55 monk build, try hydras. They're high-level and drop ok stuff, and a 105/55 monk can take out an army of them with no worries. My warrior, he can do maybe 5 ^_^

Hydras are such noobs

nycxalucard · Aug 25, 2005, 06:28 PM // 18:28

I just started reading this thread and its quite interesting, and I feel like throwing in my opinion based on what ive seen go on. i noticed some people mentioned that aNet didnt entend for this kind of thing to happen. In one way i agree because theres a lot of a team focus to this game, on the other hand i disagree since the game also wants to test your abilities by combining the right skills and such. as for hurting the economy, i feel that the ecto economy is better than before, but in its place the superior runes have taken a hit. I met this kid in the game that claimed he created the solo build, and he admitted to buying out all the superior runes when they were like dirt cheap and selling them off for a buttload. I feel stuff like that can possibly hurt the economy in small ways, or motivate some players to quit because they cant afford or acquire what they want/need in a normal fashion.

i noticed some statements on how the foundation is the abuse of 1 skill, i'm gonna have to agree with that. eventhough theres a variety of skills in play, protective bond is the key, all the other skills are just for health stabilization and energy support, and then of course smiting.

my final opinion is tht the solo build originated from a desperate desire for ecto. i can unerstand how they made it rare becuse they would want to maintain a challenge and all, but i it doesnt make too much sense to me. this game's main focus is PvP, why bother making stuff for PvE hard and worth playing. the PvE is lacking so much content that having to deal with it for hours and hours just some pink feces off transparent bugs seems wasteful. if the focus is PvP, acquisition should be made easier, less taxing, less repititive and annoying, a bit more balanced. spending time to get ecto and shards would only be worth it if the PvE content was enjoyable, but it isnt.

Charcoal Ann · Aug 25, 2005, 06:31 PM // 18:31

i am really starting to detest these threads. it boils down to two groups: in the first group, the people who use monk smite builds and will defend them to their last breath; one the other, people who either can't afford to have them (but would, just as bad IMO) or think that they are an expliot. these people fight for the nerfing of the build.

i have seen no-one at all defend the smite build who does not, has never and will never be affiliated with said build.

people use the greed excuse: if you want the build nerfed you are either; rich and don't want others being rich; someone who has used the solo build and now wants it to themselves or they a Idiots/n00bs/f*****s or 12 years old.

according to the defenders of the smite build.

i hate the argument of: well if its not what they want why didn't they nerf it ages ago?
put simply people on these boards have complained about every nerf they have made and how slap dash they are. maybe they have been thinking up a way of nerfing it without annoying people who use the skills in normal play. it is not easy.

the 'solo monks help the economy' approach. what? maybe they lower ecto price but that is all. even their effect on this is questionable as the reset could account for all the recent price drops. in other ways they cause do cause inflation. eg the market for great weapons. the best drop in FoW (or in HoH) and this is unaccesible for solo monks. they use their massive wealth to bid prices well out of the normal players price range. at release shadow bows and such (even gold) barely went for 50k. before the massive influx of solo monks they were maybe 200k.

now they go for up to 1000k

because, for the farmers, that kind of money is easier to get than for everyone else.

the argument that 'you don't do it because your a crap player' is another.
tell me how activating some enchants and spamming divine boon and bonettis defence takes skill?

nice guys finish last they say. you can go on believing that if you want, but why then is it that every country, religion and race sets great store by being a nice guy.

humans have a conscience for a reason.

to be quite honest i couldn't care less about the 105 smite build. i couldn't care less whether or not your character can afford a Ferrari. i couldn't care less if you have the morals as good as a skunk's smell. i just wish you would see it and accept it. it is the way you are and the way you will always be, but don't try to suggest that you are right.

Eonwe · Aug 25, 2005, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Protective Bond needs to be changed, and hopefully it will be.

jdwoody · Aug 25, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diplo

So because A is worse than B that then makes B acceptable?

Not at all, but given:

A) Something that has hurt my enjoyment of the game
B) Something that hasn't hurt my enjoyment of the game

If someone from the A) camp is going to say something bad about the B) camp, I'll let my opinion be known...

It doesn't help that by reading these forums we know that the person in A) camp has a personal interest in keeping the price of ectos high as they prefer to be paid in ectos. It's not election time here in the states, but I know politician BS when I hear it...

nycxalucard · Aug 25, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Protective Bond needs to be changed, and hopefully it will be.

mmhmm i agree it does, maybe if they increased the energy depletion it'll be more balanced

Sciros Darkblade · Aug 25, 2005, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Terrorism doesn't affect you directly (I hope) but it still is teh sux. But why go on THIS thread to bitch about it? No reason, just like bitching about runners on this thread is irrelevant.

Algren Cole · Aug 25, 2005, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sciros Darkblade

Terrorism doesn't affect you directly (I hope) but it still is teh sux. But why go on THIS thread to bitch about it? No reason, just like bitching about runners on this thread is irrelevant.

if you can't see how Terrorism directly affects you then you should put down the video games and open up a newspaper.

nycxalucard · Aug 25, 2005, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

if you can't see how Terrorism directly affects you then you should put down the video games and open up a newspaper.

i agree with you, but please dont start a fight about a different issue here, cuz god knows some other guy is gonna come along and then this thread is gonna be even more out of control then it already is with all this mumbo-jumbo about solo monks. =/

Sciros Darkblade · Aug 25, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Algren: I can tell you that it has not directly affected a good number of people. How many people have changed they way they go about their lives as a result of it? 100%? No, NOT EVEN CLOSE. You want me to pick up a newspaper to see how it has directly affected me? Don't you realize that would mean it hasn't? (Whether it in reality has affected *me* in particular or not is not the point.) Anyway, the point was that it was another topic irrelevant to this thread, much as Runners in GW is.

Getting back on track, I would like to point out that if farming UW for a monk is "not as good as we think," then why do so many people claim that they will no longer be able to make lots of gold as a result of a nerf of the 105/55 build?

Seems to me that perhaps some defenders of the build are being disingenuous.

Sekkira · Aug 25, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me Burn U

Can somebody explain to me what this exploit is? Seems I've missed it.

When they changed some things to do with the defeat of the doppleganger, some people discovered that with the right combination, you could grab 50k exp from it very quickly. This discovery was abused by a few, Augury Rock was immediately closed down entirely when this became aparrent and stayed closed until they fixed it. The offenders were banned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diplo

1. How does copying a build someone else developed equate to skill?

How does such equate to exploitation thus nerfing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diplo

2. If Anet wanted people to "farm easier" they would just allow people to use bots. After all, not everyone has the time to actually play the game, so why penalise them?

If ArenaNet didn't want people to farm, we'd all be banned right now.

jdwoody · Aug 25, 2005, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sciros Darkblade

Terrorism doesn't affect you directly (I hope) but it still is teh sux. But why go on THIS thread to bitch about it? No reason, just like bitching about runners on this thread is irrelevant.

I wasn't bitching about runners, just like I've never bitched about runners in any thread. Nice try Godwin'ing the thread though, I guess I wasn't clear enough in my previous replys so I'll try to spell it out for you.

If someone is arguing about runners, even though I don't like them I won't say anything because they are no more annoying than spammers or any of the other reasons that hanging out in town isn't much fun.

But if those same runners are going to say something like:

Quote:

It is a disgracefully copied build and an insult to the balance of the game. It is an exploitimonk, not an "invicimonk" and a incredibly boring way to play, to boot.

"an insult to the balance of the game"? Drok armor in the ascalon arena is an insult to the balance of the game, not someone solo'ing the UW.

"and a incredibly boring way to play"? Getting run around the map isn't boring?

Sorry I don't buy it. That runners are mad because they have max'd out their ability to hold gold, have instead been taking ectos for payment and don't want their 10k ectos to be worth 2k, that I'll buy.

zixaq · Aug 25, 2005, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

First, Halfway decent arguement is a subjective term. What I say is an excellent arugement you will say is invalid, and vice versa.

That is flat out wrong. An argument is valid or it is not, there is no subjectivity. If one of you disagree about the validity of an argument, then one of you is wrong.

Secondly, bots are different than the 105 monks. I really don't care if someone is willing so sit and play for 10 hours a day to make money, but if they leave a bot on for 3 days to do the same thing, that upsets me. Lucky for me, Anet doesn't like bots either. The only impact on players not using the solo monk is the price of monk runes. That's a fair complaint, and I'm sure it will be addressed, not because that build needs nerfing, but because the "smite run" mentality in ToA needs nerfing. ANet has specifically mentioned on many occasions that the don't want ANYONE farming, because it detracts from the gaming experience. The people having trouble finding monks for UW are probably just doing smite runs anyway. Players there to actually do the quests or clean out UW aren't going to have any extra trouble finding monks, because they're looking for people who are there to play instead of farming anyway.

Even if the solo monk build remains unchanged, I suspect the viability of repeated trips to farm smites, griffons, tengu etc. will continue to degrade.

The "single skill is overpowered" argument is flawed as well. I've seen solo monk builds without protective bond. It can be done. It can also be done without getting a lvl 17 cast of protective bond, i've tried it myself. Aatxes are harder, but it's doable. The build is about creative combination of skills, which is EXACTLY what the game is about. The only real problem with it is that it's really only good for farming. End the farming and the 105 monk will quietly go away on it's own.

Diplo · Aug 25, 2005, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

How does such equate to exploitation thus nerfing?

Did I say that copying a build should lead to nerfing? No. The exploit is the build itself, not the act of copying it. My point was that copying a build someone else discovered does not equate to skill.

Quote:

If ArenaNet didn't want people to farm, we'd all be banned right now.

Who was talking about banning people for farming? My point was that if ANet didn't care about exploits that allowed people to farm areas solo (that were never intended to be soloed) then they wouldn't care if people used bots, either. There is really very little difference between exploiting a flaw in a build to farm far, far easier than it was intended and utilising a bot to farm - if you support the former then you should have no problem in supporting the latter, either.

Sekkira · Aug 25, 2005, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diplo

Did I say that copying a build should lead to nerfing? No. The exploit is the build itself, not the act of copying it. My point was that copying a build someone else discovered does not equate to skill.

No you didn't, but a lot of others seem to. However, I do have to ask you: HOW is this an exploit? Who are YOU to dictate this? What backing do you have behind it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diplo

Who was talking about banning people for farming? My point was that if ANet didn't care about exploits that allowed people to farm areas solo (that were never intended to be soloed) then they wouldn't care if people used bots, either. There is really very little difference between exploiting a flaw in a build to farm far, far easier than it was intended and utilising a bot to farm - if you support the former then you should have no problem in supporting the latter, either.

I was, in the above quote. Exploiters of this game get banned, if this build really is an exploit, why can I still log in?

ArenaNet hasn't said anything against farmers, but in fact endorsed them if they feel they want to farm. However, they have responded to banning accounts over botting. Right there is how you can support farming but condone botting, ArenaNet does it, so how is it not possible?

Diplo · Aug 25, 2005, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

However, I do have to ask you: HOW is this an exploit? Who are YOU to dictate this? What backing do you have behind it?

I'm not dictating anything I am merely stating my opinion. My reasons for thinking it is an exploit are simple: UW was never designed to be soloed. Now I cannot prove this, since I don't work for ANet, but I think it's blindingly obvious that is the case. ANet would never purposfully create an area that is one of the most difficult in the whole game to play in, even for large groups, and yet somehow deliberately allow just one particularly build to be able to stroll through it. It flies in the face of everything ANet have ever said about balance, team-work and fairness.

Quote:

I was, in the above quote. Exploiters of this game get banned, if this build really is an exploit, why can I still log in?

The world isn't binary and so not all exploits are equally bad. Botting isn't exploiting, it's cheating. Cheats should be banned but exploits should be combated by closing down the loop-hole. I certainly wouldn't want people to be banned for using this build but I would expect ANet to address balance issues (as we know they are always looking to keep play balanced in the fluid world of Guild Wars). I fully believe ANet will do something to tone down the effectiveness of this particular build - I think the people who use this build also, in their heart, know this too, which is why they are so vociferous in their defense of it.